to assist Digges at the forthcoming conference on the same topic.85 During the next few weeks, however, his statements gradually became more outspoken. He acquired a reputation for efficient administration, and from 1618 was apparently the principal officer responsible for the disafforestation of Pewsham and Blackmore forests. His attempts to arrest the 5 ringleaders, John Pym, John Hampden, Denzil Holles, Sir Arthur Hazelrigg and William Strode, were r unsuccessful. Instructed to supply the government with a copy, he initially protested that he had not written it down, and had no notes for it. An anti-Catholic in his early days he was involved in the impeachment of the Duke of Buckingham and the Petition of Right. about a Londoner detained for refusing to lend money to the Crown prompted Pym to observe that ‘a man, as soon as he is born, ... is born into the world, and not into a prison.’86. 1635,13 encroachments on R. Thames 1636,14 subscriptions, Som. He also took up the complaint of the Somers Islands planters against the imposition on their tobacco crop, on 16 June winning agreement for a petition to the king, which he was appointed to help draft.76 It is unclear whether his status as a leading member of the committee for privileges or his Cornish family ties was the key factor which led to his involvement in the inquiry into the 1628 Cornwall election. However, he shared the general dismay at Charles’ first formal answer of 2 June, and threw his support behind a remonstrance protesting against government abuses, arguing on 6 June that it should address such highly contentious topics as the influence at Court of Buckingham’s recusant mother, and the drift towards toleration of Catholics in Ireland.89 Once the Lords indicated that they would press the king for a fuller answer to the Petition, Pym again pushed for action on supply, and was nominated on 7 June to help draft the subsidy bill’s preamble. On 1 Apr. to the committee to consider a bill to preserve the king’s revenues and, once conclusions had been reached, to the committee to consider how to present Charles with the Commons’ reform proposals (4 May). While there is some doubt over whether such a gathering actually took place, there is no question that he was now one of the most prominent figures in the Commons. In 1641 the Irish Rebellion gave Charles another reason to ask Parliament to raise taxes. After the House was informed that one Walter Brooke had converted children to Catholicism, he persuaded the Commons on 24 May to authorize a petition to the king, and was appointed to help draft it. 4 January 1642: Attempted arrest of 5 MPs. he was also appointed to help present the concealments patent during the forthcoming conference on monopolies, although his comparatively rudimentary legal skills proved a handicap. A rebellious young man called John Lilburne was punished for distributing illegal literature in the streets. was round. As he explained on 7 Dec., ‘the liberties and privileges of the House are but accessory; and that bills are the end of a Parliament. However, his warning that the king almost certainly retained an interest in the customs farm was disregarded, and the Commons blundered on into total deadlock with Charles. He was added on 28 Apr. His skill was to talk moderately although taking a hard line. Named on 4 Mar. His ready grasp of complex administrative issues brought him three committee appointments concerned with the reform of Chancery (25 and 27 Apr. He even sought the Commons’ permission on 13 Feb. to revive the 1628 charges relating to Richard Burgess.94 On the same day he was appointed to help draft letters to the two universities, requesting that they supply statements on the measures they had taken against Catholics and Arminians. At the committee for privileges the next day, he was ‘heard at large with much favour to say what he could, and was very long but to very little purpose, in so much as Mr. [Christopher] Brooke said he had delivered a great deal of false doctrine’. John Pym made the claim that Wentworth's statements of being ready to campaign against "the kingdom" were in fact directed at England itself. He certainly attended the committee set up on 21 Apr. Puritan MP John Pym launched an attack on Richard Montagu in the House of Commons. His speech to the Lords on 10 May dwelt in considerable detail on the duke’s talent for extracting personal profit from the Crown’s estates. he dared advocate the liberty of the press.” - 1641. for a subcommittee to maintain progress on religious business. ... John Pym. John Lilburne is a name that deserves to live in the future, not only to be remembered as a champion of liberty but also as one of the very first libertarians of England and indeed the world. The 3 men were pilloried and had their ears cut off. suc. During the ensuing debate he moved for a conference with the Lords to prepare a message inviting the king to break off the Spanish treaties. John Gibbon and Alfred Terry, who had relieved the besieged troops. gov. The House was convinced, at least temporarily, and resolved immediately afterwards to give religion precedence over all other business.93 For the next fortnight Pym and his allies, notably Sir Nathaniel Rich, held sway in the Commons. ... To speak of the " paraphernalia " of a waggon is a wild licence which must grate on the ears of any one who knows the meaning of that misused word. His firm stance led to him being named third on the list of Members appointed to draft the remonstrance. When his friend Sir Benjamin Rudyard finally broached the subject of war on 1 Mar., Pym privately assessed the speech as being ‘the mould of the resolution of the whole Parliament’, though his personal enthusiasm for Rudyard’s propositions was not widely shared. The debate on 25 Apr. As Pym put it in his report to the Commons on 14 May, Manwaring ‘went about to infuse into his Majesty that which was most unfit for his royal breast - an absolute power not bounded by law ... [and] endeavoured to deprive all men of the propriety of their goods’. This was not ready until 10 June, and it was then recommitted for amendments, achieving its final shape too late for it to be delivered by the end of the session.64, Pym was one of the very few Members who believed from the start that the second arrest of the St. Peter on Buckingham’s orders constituted a grievance. He partially dealt with the first of these on 21 Jan., when he persuaded the Commons to postpone by nearly a week its debate on the king’s response to the Petition of Right. to consider the contempt of the Cornish gentlemen who had sought to influence the election, as he twice commented on the progress of their examination (12-13 May). On other issues such as parliamentary privilege he was keen to avoid disputes, noting approvingly in his diary on 27 Nov. that a bid to rake over Sir Edwin Sandys’s recent arrest had failed. Instead, Members turned their attention to attacking the perceived enemies of the Church, and here of course Pym was in his element. It has been suggested that his role in investigating the Lepton and Goldsmith affair had incurred the displeasure of the royal favourite, Buckingham, but his ostensible offence was his speech on religion on 28 November. The sheer weight of business probably explains why he ceased to keep a diary. Alternatively, Pym may have been recommended by Degory Wheare, who had formerly served Lady Russell’s cousin, the 5th Lord Chandos. to assemble evidence against the duke. He also kept a diary of proceedings, which reveals him as a keen observer of events and processes. to their stonewalling, as they were clearly following the king’s instructions.67, For six days after Dr. Turner’s sensational attack on Buckingham, Pym kept his own counsel, but finally, on 17 Mar., he added his voice to complaints that the accumulation of too many offices in one man was a cause of the nation’s problems. On 1st January 1642, King Charles had offered John Pym, his leading opponent in the House of Commons, the post of Chancellor, but Pym had declined. On 2 Apr. Manwaring’s teachings appeared to undermine this theory of government, as they implied ‘that the laws and privileges of the subject do depress supreme authority, ... [and] are contrary to the law of God, ... disabling the king to do what the law of God would have done.’ Pym was treading on dangerous ground here, since Charles had encouraged the publication of Manwaring’s sermons. ), and once the facts surrounding the arrest of Sir Henry Stanhope had been established, he expressed himself satisfied that the Privy Council had not trampled on the Commons’ rights (5 May).78, By comparison, Pym was even more obsessive about religious affairs in 1628 than he had been in 1626. He was appointed the same day to alert Archbishop Abbot to this publication, though nothing immediately came of this approach. John Bartlett fared better in later years, when the Puritan cause was in the ascendant. However, his priority, as in 1621, was to safeguard England by clamping down on Catholics. In a statesmanlike speech on 24 Feb. he called for better measures to defend the coast, an inquiry into alleged mismanagement of the nation’s affairs, and, most importantly of all, the establishment of a committee to review the condition of the Crown’s finances. during a speech on Sir John Bennet’s offences: Added the next day to the committee to draft charges against Bennet, he stuck firmly to these principles during the rest of the sitting. On 1 July he had been dispatched to find out what action Archbishop Abbot had taken over Montagu’s New Gagg, and was doubtless dismayed to discover that the primate’s objections to a follow-up publication, the Appello Caesarem, had been overruled. Pym’s younger son Charles sat in the Long Parliament until Pride’s Purge, and represented Minehead in the Convention.99, © Crown copyright and The History of Parliament Trust 1964-2020. Instead, he focused his attention on Roger Manwaring, a royal chaplain who had achieved notoriety during the previous summer by preaching that obedience to the king was a religious duty, and that Forced Loan refusers were ‘temporal recusants’. 5da. Reply. However, his plea for urgent steps to placate the king fell on deaf ears.40, After the dissolution, Pym was summoned to appear before the Privy Council. However, the doctrinal debate rapidly became bogged down in arguments over how to define orthodox Anglican tenets, and by 3 Feb. stalemate had been reached. By 13 May the education committee had received a petition against Richard Montagu’s New Gagg for an Old Goose, which Pym promptly reported to the House, warning that the book was ‘full fraught with dangerous opinions of Arminius, quite contrary to the Articles established’. Pym protested that the committee had stuck to the guidelines originally devised in 1625, but to no avail. Post a Review . he renewed his call for covert recusants to be liable for the same treatment as those who openly avoided church attendance. Indeed, like many others in the House, he saw the anticipated conflict as the main issue to be addressed by the Parliament, and when (Sir) John Eliot threatened to derail proceedings on 27 Feb. with an inflamatory speech defending parliamentary privilege, he noted anxiously that ‘divers were afraid this motion would have put the House into some such heat as to disturb the greater business’. Frustrated, the king dissolved the Short Parliament. His father, a Middle Temple lawyer and Somerset magistrate, died in January 1585, shortly after being elected to Parliament for Taunton, leaving the six-month-old Pym to inherit seven manors in the same county. to the legislative committee concerned with the draining of Erith and Plumstead marshes in Kent, and, apparently acting as a chairman for the first time, reported the measure on 8 May.47, With war against Spain now very much on the Commons’ agenda, Pym rallied enthusiastically to the cause, which he equated firmly in his mind with religious duty. (2 d.v.p.) According to Clarendon (Edward Hyde†), who knew him at the peak of his powers in the 1640s, ‘he had a very comely and grave way of expressing himself, with great volubility of words, natural and proper; and understood the temper and affections of the kingdom as well as any man’.22 He came from a long line of minor West Country gentry, who had held the manor of Brymore since the reign of Henry III. In addition to demanding an end to de facto toleration, and full enforcement of the recusancy laws, he now sought parliamentary confirmation of those teachings and doctrinal statements which tended to support a Calvinist interpretation of Anglicanism. Timeline Overview 1637-1640: a period of military conflict and instability. By 25 Feb. he had decided to sit for Tavistock, but put off formally declaring his intentions, and resisted a motion for Sir Francis Popham to be allowed to sit, arguing that this would pre-empt the committee for privileges’ verdict on Chippenham’s franchise. 10 Nov 2020 #2,882 jockparamedic said: Just seen the evening news. Pym was educated at Pembroke College, Oxford, then known as Broadgates and famous for 'advanced Protestantism.' Broadside portraying, from a parliamentarian point of view, the European political situation in regard to Britain at the start of the Civil War. It would be thought that Pym would have acceded to those demands to crush the catholic uprising. ‘When he considers the necessity of the commonwealth and what we have prepared, he cannot without a great deal of horror look upon the dissolution of this Parliament’. John Pym MP They had warned that the king, who had ruled without parliament for eleven years, could not be trusted to keep Protestantism safe. The earl's family had long favored the Pyms, and the 4th earl remained John Pym's patron until the earl's death in 1641. Whatever the true circumstances, Sir Francis now replaced Cranfield as Pym’s main patron, and continued to supply him with a seat at Tavistock until 1640.44, Once back at Westminster, Pym again kept a diary, though like its predecessor it also lacks its final pages, for reasons which are unclear. This property is a special property in this wiki. An initial show of defiance was crushed, at Pym’s request, by a spell in the Tower (9 May), and although work continued thereafter on a charge to be presented to the Lords, Pym seems to have lost interest in the case, and had to be requested on 3 June to attend the drafting committee. Even his obstinate behaviour over the Chippenham election dispute did no lasting damage to his reputation. for Buckingham to be invited to explain his part in these events, he was also to the fore after the Lords took offence at the wording of the Commons’ message to the duke. However, in no sense did he regard spiritual matters as being separate and distinct from secular problems. The next day he backed Eliot’s call for Turner’s allegations to be thoroughly checked before the Commons considered censuring him, and he served on the so-called committee for the ‘causes of causes’ established on 20 Mar. He does not appear to have formally graduated from either, although he made a number of lifelong friends, the most important being William Whitaker. When the petition on this grievance was ready two days later, he supported Sir John Strangways’ motion for the whole House to accompany the Speaker when it was presented, maintaining that ‘never was there cause of greater consequence’. Jo[hn] Pym. And the 9 ROL principles are worth knowing to claim rights and know where they might be coming from. Also links into euro law. that 60 ships would be required, their tackle costing £120,000. and the drafting committee for the petition against monopolies (16 May).30. Pym made ten fewer speeches in 1624 than he had in 1621, but his nominations to the committee of privileges and 43 other committees demonstrated that his standing in the House had now risen. Both men were duly summoned before the committee. Despite the Lords’ evident distaste for the Commons’ inquiry, on 1 May Pym reiterated his belief that the St. Peter affair was indeed a grievance, on the same grounds as before.65 Nevertheless, Pym’s deepest concerns about Buckingham’s influence lay elsewhere. *, whose election at Liverpool he denounced on 10 March. The annual remuneration was £100, to which he was entitled to add fees from the bailiffs and farmers who reported to him. However, on 19 Apr. In short, any encouragement of papists tended to undermine the country’s stability, and tougher measures were therefore essential. They said that the king should not have his own court, and that he … John Pym Yeatman, Cecil George Savile Foljambe Earl of Liverpool. Even in relation to the controversial exclusion of Sir Edward Coke, who was barred from attendance by his new status as a sheriff, Pym reminded the committee on 14 Feb. that it should not rush to conclusions until the relevant precedents had been checked. he argued that legislation against grievances should not hinder the progress of the subsidy bill, while on 28 and 30 May he called for consultation with the Upper House over arrangements for ending the sitting.34 As yet there was no clear evidence that Pym was pursuing a personal agenda, though his support for the re-enfranchisement of Ilchester (26 Mar.) In general he was reluctant to see questions of privilege escalate into disputes. Even so, he had not lost sight of the need to maintain a dialogue with the king, and in one of his last speeches of the session, on 21 June, he urged the Commons to promise Charles that the longstanding impasse over Tunnage and Poundage would soon be resolved.90. The mood of the House was now increasingly hostile towards Buckingham, and when Edward Clarke leapt to the duke’s defence on 6 Aug., Pym moved for him to withdraw from the Chamber while Members considered his offence. of Humphrey Colles of Barton, Pitminster, Som.2 educ. The king believed that Puritans, encouraged by five vociferous Members of the House of Commons, John Pym, John Hampden, Denzil Holles, Arthur Haselrig and William Strode, together with the peer Edward Montagu, Viscount Mandeville (the future Earl of Manchester), had encouraged the Scots … How the Parliamentarians Won the First Civil War, http://wikireedia.net/wikireedia/index.php?title=John_Pym&oldid=7834, Significant Dates (Documents, Terms and Battles). He would have allowed both Sir Simeon Steward and Sir John Hippesley to waive their right to privilege over legal disputes (28-9 Apr. Pym was MP for Tavistock and owed his patronage to Ear of Bedford An anti-Catholic in his early days he was involved in the impeachment of the Duke of Buckingham and the Petition of Right . Broadgates Hall, Oxf. 2 stacker1 LE. On 15 May he was nominated to the conference about Bishop Harsnett of Norwich, whose opinions resembled Montagu’s, but after the Lords declined to act his progress was limited to collecting charges, which he delivered for safe-keeping to the clerk of the Commons on 29 May. At the Middle Temple he was bound with two more long-term companions, his step-brother Francis Rous*, and William Whitaker*, who was subsequently one of his legal advisers.24 Such friendships were important for Pym. of John Hooke of Bramshot, Hants, 4s. JOHN PYM 41 more, and it was there on May 20, 1584, that John Pym was born.12 His father, Alexander Pym, was an important country land owner, a Justice of the Peace and a member of Parliament.18 His mother was Phillippe Coles, heiress of a rather large fortune, whose father, Humphrey Coles, had become prominently wealthy through the sale Nevertheless, after a sharper command, he delivered in a copious summary. He also blocked a move on 1 Mar. Of the two, Burgess was the easier nut to crack. Although the terms went further than Pym had wanted he realised he needed their cooperation if they were to defeat the king. with a motion for Montagu to be reported to the Lords at a conference, but the House merely conceded that he could prepare a written message containing the charges. In the Parliament of 1614 and again in 1621, Pym was most active in the matter of enforcing penalties against Catholics. At this stage Pym showed no interest in impeachment as a weapon to be used against government ministers, and he took no part in the proceedings against Lord Chancellor St. Alban (Sir Francis Bacon*). Among these was a bill for educating recusants’ children as Protestants (1 Mar. that Montagu was guilty of publishing doctrine contrary to the Articles of Religion, and which tended to sedition by blurring the distinctions between the Churches of England and Rome. Doubtless disappointed by the smaller amounts which other Members were prepared to contemplate, he argued the next day for payment within a year. When a mysterious letter was delivered to the House on 23 June, Pym ensured that it was referred to a committee, recalling the similar incident in 1621, and, once it turned out to be popish in content, he was appointed to help take it to the king. ... 3 January 1642: Charles I decides to arrest the five MPs he held responsible for the Grand Remonstration including John Pym and John Hampden. Pym was named to the relevant committee, but his interest in Tunnage and Poundage at this juncture probably extended no further than the question of whether the Crown would be prepared to make concessions over religion in order finally to secure a formal grant. During the 1629 session, Pym received 16 committee nominations and made 18 recorded speeches, though by now the scale of his influence was such that he must have spoken more frequently than this. Speaker Lenthall Asserting the Privileges of the Commons Against Charles I when the Attempt was made to Seize the Five Members, a painting by Charles West Cope. His targets included Sir Thomas Gerrard, 2nd Bt. He insisted on 20 May that the Petition must continue to state that abuses had been committed by the king’s authority, and dismissed the Lords’ additional clause about sovereign power as introducing a novel concept quite distinct from English law.88 Pym was appointed to the conferences at which the Lords finally abandoned their compromise proposals for the Petition and accepted the Commons’ version (23-4 and 26 May). ), and the committee to examine petitions relating to the courts of justice (19 April). Having helped to draft the bill of liberties, he was automatically appointed to the committee to draw up the Petition, and was also named to check the text’s fair copy (6 and 8 May). He was unimpressed by the king’s offer to accept such a bill providing it merely restated existing documents such as Magna Carta, and on 5 May objected to a motion to have this undertaking recorded in the Journal, as it ‘trenches into the liberty of the House’. Also known as Parliamentarians, they fought against King Charles I of England and his supporters, known as the Cavaliers or Royalists, who claimed rule by absolute monarchy and the principle of the 'divine right of kings'. Co. from 1630, dep. In 1643, Pym proposed an alliance with the Scottish Covenanters. Instead he decided to blackmail Charles instead and demand reform. - The majority over 35yers have aloud the death 40. million American people (Roe vrs Wade 1973) - The majority cut off the ears of John Pym because. One of the Members selected to help question the councillors of war (28 Feb., 9 Mar. Mortified by Members’ reactions, he briefly left the Chamber.32, Pym’s talents ordinarily found more favour than this. Named to the preliminary framing committee (24 June), he and Sandys then produced an initial draft, and he was twice appointed to revising committees, following objections in each House (28 June, 4 July).55 His only other recorded speech during this sitting concerned Arminianism. Well aware that this would constitute an unprecedented departure for the Commons, he sought to reassure its Members. On the previous day, this order was published: Although the Lords were unimpressed by some of the witnesses provided by Pym to corroborate the impeachment charge, Manwaring was condemned on 14 June, imprisoned and heavily fined.84, Pym presumably absorbed some of his views on the liberties of the subject from the debates which dominated the Parliament’s opening weeks, since he personally contributed very little to these discussions. Author of Intellectual Origins of the English Revolution and others. Of his five legislative committee appointments, three dealt with sabbath abuses, subscription and clerical leases (22 and 27 June, 11 July).53 After William Coryton called, on 21 June, for Members to hold a fast, he persuaded the House to petition the king for the fast to be observed throughout the whole country instead, and secured nomination both to the drafting committee and to the conference at which the Lords were invited to join in this initiative. Presumably not by coincidence, Pym’s parliamentary diary ends abruptly following his own summary of this speech.41 In April 1622, though still formally under confinement, he was allowed to leave London for one of his country residences, and around the following August he was fully discharged at the request of Cranfield, who considered that the Wiltshire disafforestation programme was faltering in his absence. of Humphrey Colles of Barton, Pitminster, Som.2 educ. Here are stanzas from a poem Anonymous wrote on behalf of the King, mocking “The Character of a Roundhead.” John Pym was a leader of Parliament. John Pym was a prominent Parliamentarian during the English Civil Wars. In response to Sir Benjamin Rudyard’s proposal on 10 Feb. for a committee to examine a host of problems such as recusancy and clergy funding, he welcomed the initiative, but called for the widest possible brief. He was given a state funeral. After the dissolution, Pym was summoned to … As ever his priority was to seek a remedy for religious grievances, but he faced two early obstacles. Surprisingly, there is no evidence to suggest that Pym subsequently nursed any sense of personal grievance over his treatment.42, Although Pym maintained households around this time at both Brymore and Wherwell, Hampshire, he was unable to find a seat in the 1624 Parliament in either the latter county or Somerset. to the committee to draft a petition for a general fast, and to the consequent conference on the following day, he shortly afterwards took the chair of the grand committee on religion, effectively turning it into his personal vehicle. Once more chairing the grand committee for religion, on 29 Jan. Pym reported a draft declaration devised by Rich, which rejected papist and Arminian interpretations of the Thirty-Nine Articles. of safety 1642-d.,17 Westminster Assembly June 1643-d.,18 Council of War Aug. 1643-d.,19 commr. He also shrewdly advised on 3 Apr. disafforestation, Blackmore and Pewsham forests, Wilts. john 47. justice 45. ought 44. regiment 44. engagement 42. conceive 40. parliaments 40. levellers 40. lilburne 40. colonel 39. grievances 37. liberties 37. debates 36. thereof 36. consent 35. proposals 34. commonwealth 32. freedoms 32. whatsoever 31. representatives 31. amongst 30 . Nominated on 28 Apr. Two days later he secured the rejection of a bill to set up courts leet by observing that the measure was unnecessary, since it duplicated powers normally exercised by the Crown.33 In general he sought to maintain good relations between the Commons on the one hand and the Lords and the monarch on the other. He had earlier headed a deputation to Archbishop Abbot to find out what measures had been taken against popish schoolmasters since 1625 (28 April). to the committee to investigate the alleged slandering of John Selden by the 2nd earl of Suffolk (Theophilus Howard, Lord Walden*), his only recorded comments on the affair were some minor observations on points of detail (17 April). he reported from the grand committee for religion concerning complaints against both the Arminian Montagu and Richard Burgess, vicar of Witney, Oxfordshire, who had been preaching against puritanism. However, there were limits to how far he could trust the government, and on 12 May he moved that the treasurers of war should be accountable to the Commons, and also punishable by them providing they were not peers.49, Open debate of war in turn highlighted domestic religious issues, and here Pym was in his element. Master of Balliol College, University of Oxford, 1965–78. However, when he reported back on 23 June that the peers wished the date of the fast to be postponed, the Commons declined to co-operate.54 Pym was also heavily involved in the petition promoted by Sir Edwin Sandys to rein in recusancy and strengthen the Church of England by such measures as the reform of impropriations, even though the latter proposal was anathema to his patron, Russell. His Grand Remonstrance was a list of complaints against the King and Church and was part of his strategy to get control of army. Compared with the two previous Parliaments, there was a profound shift in the balance of his priorities in 1625. 5da. The king’s demand to know whether the Commons would trust his word produced a yet stronger reaction on 6 May. In fact, he went on to make 40 more speeches before the Parliament ended, an unusually large number for a novice Member, although he attracted only 18 committee nominations. Let us leave it where it is.’ Two days later he was nominated to help draft the bill on liberties proposed by Sir Thomas Wentworth. Despite Pym’s growing association with religious affairs, his background in financial administration was not forgotten, and following the conference on 8 Aug. when Buckingham defended the government’s foreign policy, he was entrusted with reporting the speech by lord treasurer Marlborough (James Ley*) on the state of the royal finances.57, Pym was also very much in evidence in the 1626 Parliament, making 65 recorded speeches, and receiving nearly 50 committee appointments. Had ne ’ re so much, Fling the Teacher Right to privilege legal! Protestants ( 1 Mar was the easier nut to crack since 1624 Chancellor but! Of Members appointed to draft the remonstrance lt. of ordnance Nov. 1643-d.21, Pym now... Objecting that it tended to restrict future Royal income from these estates very and. 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